Larger States ruled out

Thursday 12 December 2024

The option of having seven more deputies in the States has been decisively rejected.

Deputy John Gollop made the attempt to increase the number as the Assembly debated a proposal being led by Deputy Mark Helyar to go the other way and reduce the numbers by 10.

Under Deputy Gollop's vision, there would be 45 Guernsey deputies and two Alderney representatives, and to keep costs under control cut deputies pay proportionately to a basic rate of £36,341.51 instead of £43,036.

The amendment lost by 33 votes to three.

Deputy Rob Prow's favourite parliamentary system across the Crown dependencies was in the Isle of Man, where the House of Keys has 24 elected members - although there is also a smaller chamber dealing with legislation.

Deputy Yvonne Burford was instinctively in favour of increasing the number of deputies, but could not support the amendment.

She said the reduction in 2016 had resulted in greater divisions and potentially a reduction in the quality of debate.

"What is needed is a sufficient pool of elected members from which to be able to draw enough people with the skills and drive to sit on the committees, do the work and ask the questions," she said.

"And I believe that pool is potentially higher than 38 in any case, it isn't any lower. Now this, this can cost more, but we do well to remember that the additional costs could be recouped 100 times over by having the overall skills in the Assembly to be able to make the right decisions, or, equally, avoid the wrong ones."

But she said any change to the number of members should be done as part of a holistic, carefully researched and widely consulted process, not on the back of an amendment.

It would also be poor form to overturn what people had voted for in the island-wide voting referendum in 2018 on the back of an amendment.

It was also too close to the General Election.

Pictured: The debate has been sparked by Deputy Mark Helyar wanting to reduce the number of deputies in the States by 10.

Deputy Bob Murray said there was no rationale for an increase of seven, saying the amendment was "more of a whim than a considered judgement".

Seconder of the amendment, Deputy Aidan Matthews said the amendment could be a step to reverse the trend to committees with larger mandates, "to return more towards a structure where members are more able to specialize, more able to dedicate their attention to areas of policy that are of importance for the island."

He said that was of the hardest tasks in the States was introducing new ideas.

"It's easy enough to support an existing policy, and it's not too much trouble to oppose one, but bringing a new idea is genuinely hard work. There just isn't the support in the form of political parties or professional policy functions of committees to develop new ideas or to take a different approach. In my view, reducing the number of members would diminish the States further."

Deputy Jonathan Le Tocq said his experience was that the problems in this and past Assemblies had been bunker mentalities.

"I don't think the numbers really make a lot of difference to that."

Deputy Helyar said the amendment had a hole in it the size of a small planet in terms of the logic of its argument.

An argument about putting numbers up to bring about more diversity and inclusion was not what happened if you look at past Assemblies with higher numbers, he argued. Their decisions had also led to the problems of today.

Deputy Gollop said it was a different society in the past with more part-time members.

He looked at those who lost out in the last election because of the number of seats and said they included a campaigner for autism rights, an artist, an environmentalist and a bus campaigner.

"We have a greater change of diversity of professional backgrounds and I think that's important."

He went through the size of different political Assemblies, but said Guernsey was different.

"We have our own laws on companies, taxation, abortion, many things. We are not a local council receiving legislation, we have to have critical numbers to run things. We own an airport, we own a harbour, we own the water, we own all kinds of things in almost every area. And I think therefore, the size of our parliament needs to reflect that."

He conceded to arguments that he had no evidence to back up the number.

"What I'm saying is entirely subjective, although it's based, I believe, on a reasonable case of historical success."

There were many challenging decisions made in the 16 years when there were 45 deputies, including buying Auringy, oil tankers, zero-10 and fundamental transformation.

The debate heard arguments about members not attending presentations and meetings. Deputy Gollop said he wanted members attendances to be published so they could see if there was the right number of deputies.

More members could mean a stronger public accounts function and back bench which could help save money and be more cost effective, he said.

Only Deputies Al Brouard, Gollop and Matthews supported the amendment.

The debate continues.